Understanding Key Issues Facing Labor and Palestine in 2024
In this episode of Building Bridges, hosts Ken Nash and Mimi Rosenberg delve into pressing global issues. They first speak with Nelson Lichtenstein, a prolific author and expert on labor, who discusses the recent surge in union interest and activity despite persistent company resistance, notably at Amazon and Walmart. This conversation covers the impact of Biden's NLRB policies and the looming challenges workers might face under a potential Trump administration. They then shift focus to Gaza, where Ziad Abbas, Executive Director of the Middle East Children's Alliance, describes the dire humanitarian crisis under violent Israeli occupation. Highlighting daily struggles, deaths, and the broader implications of this conflict, Abbas calls for urgent international action to end the genocide. The episode underscores the interconnectedness of labor struggles and global human rights issues.
00:00 Introduction and Program Overview
00:15 Interview with Ziyad Abbas on Gaza
01:11 Discussion with Nelson Lichtenstein on Labor Movements
06:34 Challenges Facing Union Organizing
14:38 Public Sector Unions and Their Impact
17:25 UAW's Southern Offensive and Stand Up Strike
22:26 The Future of Unionism in a Precarious Workforce
28:08 Supporting Undocumented Workers in Union Movements
31:11 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
32:16 Systemic Oppression and Resistance
33:00 Interview with Ziad Abbas: Personal Reflections
35:18 Daily Life and Struggles in Gaza
38:24 Impact of the Genocide on Palestinians
47:21 Global Complicity and Call to Action
52:38 Final Thoughts and Call for Solidarity
Rough TRANSCRIPT:
Speaker:[00:00:00] I'm Ken Nash, and with Mimi Rosenberg, We are building bridges.
Speaker 2: Uh, building bridges in the belly of the respective beasts. Ha ha. So what, says Miles Davis. Sel, we'll tell you so what. Later in the program, Ziyad Abbas, Executive Director of the Middle East Alliance for Children. On Gaza, and which has gone from occupation and being described and run as the largest open air prison in the world to, yes, to a concentration camp, to being an annihilation zone, an annihilation zone of a people, indeed its future generation, the children.
Is this Zionism's final solution against the Palestinians? For the people of the Palestinian nation's refusal to capitulate to the settler [00:01:00] colonialist project, the state of Israel and its apartheid structure. We'll ask Ziad Abbas. We're
Speaker: joined now by Nelson Lichtenstein.
Nelson is the author or editor of 18 books, and his latest book is Why Unions Matter, a study of how and why the labor question has become such a pressing issue.
Speaker 2: Nelson Is with us to take account of the good, the bad, and the ugly of the organized and organizing workers' movement of 2024, and then assess what the MAGA juggernaut means for labor in 2025 as we get ready [00:02:00] to don our armor in preparation for a project 2025.
Well, Professor Nelson Lichtenstein, your response, your response to the workers organizing efforts, to begin with, at Amazon and the recalcitrance of that behemoth company to thwart the workers just demands. How does this kind of typify and explain the era or the year that we are exiting?
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, the, we, we have.
Two things that are going on at the same time, which are kind of almost canceling each other out. On the one hand, there's no doubt in the LA last year and the year before and before that, we have a heightened level of interest in unions by, by workers, uh, activism, self activism, uh, uh, uh, uh, unions like the teamsters have, you know, [00:03:00] they understand we must organize, uh, Amazon and they had a.
A kind of a bit of a strike of a few of several of the, uh, uh, distribution centers just recently, uh, but at the same time, uh, and, you know, despite the, um, uh, this sort of this new activism and, and, and public support of unions, which has never been higher in, in many decades. Uh, companies remain absolutely intransigent for the most part, and Amazon, uh, with which employs, you know, uh, upwards of a million, um, uh, workers in the, in the, um, in its distribution centers, uh, is.
Absolutely. You know, typical of that. And, uh, so the, so, so those two things are at the same time and, uh, uh, it's not exactly, I don't think an explosion is coming precisely, but, but those two things are there and you can find this in other places as well, uh, at Starbucks and auto and, and all, and all lots of other places.
Um, uh, it has been a [00:04:00] period in the last The last year and the year before of, you know, considerable, uh, working class and union activity, which gives heart to, to many of us and no doubt about that. But, but the remarkable thing is, or not the remarkable thing, but the perhaps the, in the current moment, the predictable thing, and it will only get worse under Trump is that the, the companies have remained intransigent.
I can say this is not. always normal. That is, in other periods of working class advance, whether it was the thirties or the sixties or eight or today in academia would be another kind of another example. Uh, uh, managers, executives, owners say, well, I guess we better, you know, we better accommodate something.
Otherwise, it'll, you know, be continual strife. So that happened in the 30s. It happened in public employment in the 60s. It happened in some places with with African American workers in the 60s and 70s. And it's happening in academia today. That's just a small slice. But, you know, places like Stanford [00:05:00] or NYU or Or uh, uh, they say, well, I guess we better, you know, agree, uh, to recognition and higher wages because otherwise, otherwise we'll get chaos.
But that's not happening in most of American industry.
Speaker: Professor Lichtenstein, it's a big country. Is the growth of unions, is the resistance by employers, is that different markedly state by state,
Speaker 3: was it, did you say state by state? What? What did you say?
Speaker: Does the response of, the growth of unions and the response of employers, does that differ state by state?
Speaker 3: Oh, well, well, well, to a, well, to a degree, although I would, I would no longer say that, well, the South is reactionary, and yes, of course, it's difficult there.
But, you know, in Michigan or New York state, Oh, things are all different. But in, you know, in, in, uh, I don't think that the difference is that great. I think [00:06:00] in, whether we're talking about say hospitals or banks or Amazon, of course, or Walmart, these are national companies, uh, that, that I would, I would, I mean, there are some states have higher levels of union, uh, density.
Uh, California, New York, Hawaii, et cetera, but I would not say this is a particularly a region. Uh, I think, I think it's overwhelmingly the case that, that, uh, uh, companies are, are, are, uh, resist unionism, you know, for the most part, that's the standard operating procedure. Yes.
Speaker 2: Let's just take a look for a moment at what you think has happened in the last 10 years with labor law.
That has been a significant, uh, inhibitor, uh, not an inhibitor, but a prohibition, really, on the facilitation of, uh, workers, or would you disagree, uh, actually [00:07:00] organizing?
Speaker 3: No, I agree. I mean, I, for the most part, the trajectory of labor law in the United States over the last, well, decades has been, uh, increasingly, uh, to make it more difficult, uh, to organize, uh, to, to make things that used to be legal, illegal.
Uh, and that, that's been true that the courts, uh, it's not just the NLRB, but then the courts get ahold of it. And in general, uh, that has been the case, whether it's, Uh, uh, you know, making it more difficult to boycott companies to, uh, a concerted activity. Uh, you know, a free speech on the job, uh, captive audience meetings, et cetera.
And so it's been made increasingly difficult. Um, uh, you know, is, uh, is a shopping center open to people to hand out leaflets or, you know, can you do that in the break room? Small things adding up to make it very difficult to, to organize. Certainly not the, the vision of the framers of the [00:08:00] Wagner act in 1935, who, who said, you know, we want, uh, uh, workers shag unions of their own choosing employers stay out.
Just stay out, not your, not later on. You can have your say later on when the bargaining begins, but when it comes to unionism, you know, get, get lost. Now, what we have had under Biden was, was in fact, um, uh, a, a re remarkably, uh, uh, uh, a liberal NLRB and A, um, uh, a, a, um, a, uh, with, with ambrosio, with um, um,
Speaker 2: Nelson.
Let me just stop you long enough to do. Yeah, sure. Not everybody knows what the. NLRB is National Labor Relations Act and the function it provides. So just interject that as you continue on that course,
Speaker 3: when it comes to private sector employment, that would include Amazon and Walmart and Starbucks, the.
Government agency that has a lot to say about, uh, [00:09:00] how, uh, the rights of unions and workers and and which facilitates elections, which is the normal way. Not always, but the normal way in which workers express their interest in a union is the National Labor Relations Board, uh, which was created in 1935 under the Wagner Act.
It's been around for a long time, and it has, it, it, it's, unfortunately, even when you have liberals on the NLRB, uh, running it, uh, Uh, the courts can sort of trumpet can sort of, uh, they can, they can declare things that the NLRB does, uh, uh, legal or not and constitutional or not. Uh, so that's another story and that, and they, they intervene, uh, a lot, however, under Biden, uh, and this was really, I think.
Partly the influence of Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren and others and [00:10:00] the, and the labor movement, uh, the NLRB has been quite liberal and has sought to, uh, uh, you know, make many more, uh, uh, uh, mechanisms for workers to form unions and has tried to stop some of the anti union where, Uh, activities. Uh, one of the most important, for example, is the so called captive audience meetings where an employer insists that all the workers attend a meeting they must mandatory and then they are propagandized, you know, with anti union messages, often by By, uh, very expensive and sophisticated anti union law firms.
So the NLRB has been quite liberal under, under, uh, Biden. And that's been a great thing and a good thing. And unfortunately that will be reversed under Trump. [00:11:00] But
Speaker 2: Uh, since there's that, that notion of, uh, the labor president, if you will, Joe Biden, but here we have the Richard Trump, uh, protecting the right to organize act, which became known as the pro act, right?
It was a proposed law. That would amend previous labor laws such as the National Labor Relations Act for the purpose of expanding various labor protections related to employees rights to organize and collectively bargain. And yet, nothing really has been done. I, I don't remember. Any forceful statement or promotion of the pro act by the Biden administration, clearly one of the most important things that could happen, which is attacking tackling these laws to prohibit or inhibit in every way workers being able to unionize.
Speaker 3: Yeah, let me put it this way. [00:12:00] You're right. Uh, the pro act was failed in Congress. Uh, uh, the Democrats had a very slim majority and, and, and, and that wasn't enough because, uh, several of the Democrats defected on that question. So it failed. And did Biden put the entire weight of the administration behind trying to pass the pro act?
No, he did not. However, I would say this, uh, then the NLRB said, well, we're going to try to, in effect, enact the proact in a piecemeal fashion. And they began to do that. They did begin to do that. But, but, but beyond all that, I would just make this point when employers. are intransigent and are willing to take the bad public relations and the money it costs to resist a union, uh, they can do that pro act or no pro act.
And that is essentially what has been happening. They have decided to stonewall and even [00:13:00] beyond that. Now, as you know, the Amazon and Starbucks, uh, uh, and, and, oh, and of course, uh, uh, Tesla, uh, all of which have been, you know, had some union activity at their companies, uh, have, have entered the courts to declare the entire, uh, many parts of the National Labor Relations Act 1935.
Unconstitutional. And that is in the courts right now. And who knows what's going to happen because the, uh, there are these very conservative judges, uh, that, you know, in Texas and other places. So in that respect, um, while I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm frankly, uh, uh, I do applaud the Biden administration for for appointing liberals in many places when when capital is intransigent, it really does require something more than politics as usual, uh, to [00:14:00] advance unionism.
Uh, and, and I have to just say the statistics are that despite, uh, you know, uh, the activity, and that's the most important thing, the self activity of, of, of many, many workers, the proport, the, the, despite all of that, the proportion of American working class represented by unions has not increased in the last four years.
Speaker: Nelson, in addition to that. Many, many, many workers work not for a private employer, but by state, local, or national government. How are these workers making out in this
Speaker 3: context? Yes, thank you for raising that, because the other kind of part of labor law is that covered by It covers public employees, uh, and that is not covered by the National Labor Relations Board.
It's covered by various state, um, uh, laws, which now here they do exist in [00:15:00] a central, largely the north, northern, northeastern, west coast, not in the south, not the mountain west, uh, uh, and they're, they're, you know, so there. Uh, whether it's public employees, including university, uh, people, uh, including, uh, uh, various kinds of, of, of, of just, you know, uh, sometimes hospitals are run by states, uh, uh, you know, whether it's, and then of course, all sorts of the functions of the state government, uh, there, uh, uh, you, you, you, you have a much more robust union sector, uh, that's been about, uh, 30 35 percent of public employees are in unions much, much higher than in the private sector, where it's about 6%.
And they're in that. And here, where, um, uh, if you know, public universities are Covered, uh, by thes state laws. There, you've had a, a tremendous, uh, uh, [00:16:00] activity and successful activity both in California, uh, and in, in, uh, in, in, in places in Massachusetts, New England, uh, and, and, and, and, uh, places like that you, you have.
In fact, had, um, a union advance in that sector. Now, whether you think it's important that graduate students and postdocs are in unions, uh, you know, that isn't exactly the working class we've traditionally thought about, but nevertheless, they have been joining and that's the one place where many, university executives, whether they're private or public, whether it's Stanford, USC, or Uh, NYU or, or, uh, the University of Michigan, uh, or Cornell, they have said, okay, I guess this is the coming thing and we'll, we will agree to recognize unions and, and raise wages.
And that is one thing that has happened now. It's not, it's not that big a sector of the working class and, and it is a kind of very [00:17:00] narrow strata, but that has been happening.
Speaker 2: Professor, I also want to ask you about, uh, my union. I should say that I'm, uh, uh, The Association of Legal Aid Attorneys, which is a local that is in local, yes.
Uh, that is local 2325. We're a part of the UAW. So yes, a lot's been said about the, uh, United Auto Workers. Uh. Southern Offensive and their stand up strike. What do you think these efforts have, have met, uh, for propelling the labor movement forward? I mean, how do you look at that organizing the South campaign and how do you look at the, uh, stand up strike?
Was that a shot in the arm, a kick in the ass, to the Volkswagen and the Mercedes Benz? And to some degree, his response, that is Sean Fain, the president, to, uh, Non communication, if you will, with the [00:18:00] Trumpian monster, the Agent Orange, Donald Trump.
Speaker 3: Well, yes. And let me say two things about that. I had the pleasure to, uh, uh, be in the audience when, uh, the.
I think it was the president of your local of, of legal aid attorneys from New York, uh, was speaking at a, at a UAW, uh, kind of meeting. And I was there and she, and, and they were talking and Frank, and they were, and the panel was about, you know, international affairs and Gaza. And she made this point, which I thought was really interesting and good, uh, that while, and then your, your local had, had, had, as I understand, it has, uh, Uh, endorsed a resolution which is critical of, of, of the Israeli assault on Gaza and has called for a ceasefire and she made the point that far from this being controversial or divisive within this group of, of, uh, You know, uh, defense attorneys.
It was a unifying, uh, factory. It helped strengthen the union and that, you know, [00:19:00] that you, you, you know, the union should not can are they are for bread and butter things, but, but they, they, when the, when the membership is, is vitally concerned about an international issue, a humanitarian issue, then, then it's, it's right and proper for the union to, uh, to endorse that.
And that had a unifying effect. I thought that was extremely interesting, uh, given the, the critique of that, which was found in the newspapers and, oh, you know, the unions divided over Gaza. I thought that was very interesting. Now, um, uh, and you, you undoubtedly know a lot more about that than I, uh, now when it comes to the, uh, the, the UAW as a whole, of course, uh, One of the great victories of 2024, no, undoubtedly, one of the great victories was the overwhelming victory of the UAW at Volkswagen in Chattanooga.
Uh, and I later went to Chattanooga and talked to some people there and, you know, it was, uh, uh, the, the, the, it reflects, you know, the larger, uh, Pro [00:20:00] union impulse, which is not just among grad students or or defense attorneys, but is within the blue collar working class, undoubtedly, and including in the South.
And this was an overwhelming victory. Um, and they are they are now having a very in a very democratic fashion. Are negotiating a first contract, which I think will in fact, uh, be, be, uh, um, agreed to. And I think then it will, will pay us. I think that is a very hopeful thing. And of course, uh, as I've written, uh, uh, when in 1863, when the union army, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, defeated the Confederates at Chattanooga, president Abraham Lincoln declared Chattanooga the gateway to the South.
To the confederacy. And I think it is. I think it still is when it comes to the unionism, because there are many German owned, uh, factories in South Carolina. And in the Georgia, and that is the [00:21:00] next target of the UAW. Now at Mercedes, again, another German company in Alabama, they failed to win a NLRB election about a month later.
That would be in May of night of 2024. Uh, but they're going to come back and, uh, uh, I think this is, this is undoubtedly a very hopeful thing, uh, for the union movement. And I think Sean Fain and the UAW has put, um, uh, good resources. And I make one more point about this very interesting, um, union organizers.
Well, yes, you want Southern, you know, born and bred, you know, union organizers, you know, with Southern accents and, you know, from the local, you know, you want, but you also want, and the UAW has. Put in place in the south, you know, red hot politically, uh, adept, uh, uh, uh, you know, uh, grad students and, and and people who, who, you know, led, led you know, [00:22:00] difficult, big strikes at the University of California and other places, and they've gone to the, to, to, to Chattanooga and, and to Spring Hill, Tennessee, and Nashville.
And, you know, they're doing a good job. Uh, , they, they're not like the, the, the locals are not saying, get outta here Yankees, we don't want you. No, they're, they're doing a good job. So I think we, we are in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a better place in, in some respects there.
Speaker 2: You know, one of the things that, uh, a, a number of, uh, people have, have, have written to me lately is, look, the reason the labor movement has roughly 11%, which I, I.
Don't even want to get into, but the fact is that it does. And so despite the fact that there's more interest now than there's been in the last 10 years, there is no longer a working class, if you will. Marx's conceptualization is obsolete. There is just a [00:23:00] huge precariat, and more and more and more we're going to be in precariat situations.
And so there really isn't a working class. as we knew it. So the issue of organizing unions and industry lines just doesn't work. So forget it. Think of other ways of organizing and relating to people. A lot of reactionary components to that line of thought, but Indeed, your thought about the fact that there is a large precarious workforce and where that, uh, takes us or should take us.
Uh, I don't know. You can look at it from the Uber drivers and so on in terms of organization of the working class to really a bargain for, of course, their wages and benefits, but certainly for workers empowerment.
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, it's certainly true that capitalists and managers in the last few decades have tried to construct a [00:24:00] working class or their employees, which which is precarious, and that's that's one of the great, uh, grievances of people who work in the whole retail, you know, sector from Walmart to Starbucks, et cetera, is, Hey, I'd like to have a regular work week here.
You know, I'd like to, I'd like to have a predictable work week. week. And one of the first demands of any union impulse way and you know, at places like, uh, you know, fast, uh, you know, the, well, the fast food places or the, or, uh, uh, you know, um, whole foods or, or Starbucks or, or wherever is, Hey, we'd like to have a regular workplace work week with, with predicted predictable work week.
That's what we want. And, and the, the business model of these corporations has been, no, they want something quite Uh, you know, uh, more precarious and, and, and, and, and flexible from the point of view of management, not the workers. And then of course, with Uber and Lyft and the, and the, and the app based, um, uh, uh, platforms there, they, they, they, they [00:25:00] are trying to make this a kind of a legal.
Uh, organizational that is it? Well, we don't even employ people. These are they're all independent contractors. And I mean, they've taken that one step farther. And that's that's a big issue. But look, of course, that all these people are workers and we have a working class. It varies over time. And of course, today, it's not just blue collar workers.
It's it's uh, there's tremendous numbers of people who are pink, you know, white, gray collars and, you know, all over. And in fact, what's Transcribed The odd thing is that in like in New York and, and Boston, you know, great strides are being made in the, in the world of, of what see right now is called the cultural apparatus that is, you know, museum, uh, workers and, and, and, and, and, and hospitals and postdocs and people of that they, they, they're going to, they get paid as on a salary.
And it's, And, and they have a precarious life because after a year or two, they're, they're tossed out, you know, and so a [00:26:00] unionization is taking place there with, with some, uh, you know, success. Um, but of course we have a working class. I mean, I mean, from, for 250 years, uh, uh, you know, the corporations, uh, managers, uh, capitalists have tried to.
To manipulate the working class and structure it in such a way to their benefit, but, but people, you know, have to go to work and they have to, to, to, to, to, to get an income. We, we, we have, we aren't beyond that wages for work. That's for sure. Work for wages. Um, uh, I mean, I do think it makes it more difficult.
And I think that the law, in other words, the law does not fit the reality of the, of the work. That's the problem. And so we have to either change the law or ignore the law. And I think that, uh, I think what I think in, in, in moments of great, uh, uh, social upheaval, uh, you know, you ignore the law, whether it's the civil rights movement or the sit down strikes of the thirties or, uh, or things that have been happening, uh, you know, uh, in some places recently.
And I think that's, uh, I think that's what we're going [00:27:00] to, what's going to, what's going to happen. I, I am not, um, I'm not, I would, let me say one more thing. I'll just inject this. I know it's on your mind. Of all the Trump's victory was a, you know, was a, was a disaster and a downer, but among the, within the, the union movement.
Not that they're unionists are pro-Trump. There are unions who are pro-Trump, or even union leaders are pro-Trump. But, but, but thinking about people who are not, who are more, uh, you know, more, more militant, more democratic, more more liberal, I think the, the Trump victory will have less impact on the.
Possibility of the labor movement, uh, doing things then perhaps on other sectors of, of, of the progressive, uh, side of American politics. I think that I think many in the union say, yeah, Trump won, but it wasn't their fault. He won. It was, it was the fault of the Democrats, you know, you know, and, uh, So I, I'm, I'm, I'm not, I'm not [00:28:00] disheartened, uh, at this, at this moment particularly,
Speaker 2: I must say, since you mentioned, uh, Trump HA 2025.
Uh, just a, a thought and that is, or concern, to what extent do you think that we can mobilize? We must, but that we can mobilize and politicize the unions to support, to support the undocumented workers. Who are scheduled for a slaughter for a deportation at this juncture. How much is that significant as an issue and agenda that the working class as a whole must pursue?
Speaker 3: Well, you know, one of the things that is that is actually in a very progressive thing about the. The, even the labor law as it exists in America today despite problems, is that you can be an undocumented worker and be a [00:29:00] bonafide member of a, of a trade union. Uh, and you can vote in, in a, an election. And in fact, one of the, the, the progressive things that did happen, uh, with the NLRB and, and and the Biden administration is, it, is they passed a regulation which said.
When a, um, uh, there's a union campaign, uh, All deportation, uh, procedures will be held in abeyance for up to four years, you know, while the union, while the, the, the issue of, of who gets to be in the election and the, and the outcome of the election, the NLRB election takes place this. And so in effect, it's saying, you know, it's irrelevant.
Uh, uh, if, if you're a, um, uh, undocumented, uh, when it comes to the, you know, your, you know, Your right and capacity to participate in a NLRB election. Now, whether it's, you're talking about the teamsters who were the leadership, at least as, or the [00:30:00] O'Brien's trying to play footsie with, uh, with Trump, uh, or a couple other unions, you know, that sort, I think that.
If you come to the point where a, uh, uh, the ice is, uh, you know, rounding up, uh, uh, uh, undocumented immigrants who, uh, are a potential part of a, of a union, uh, uh, campaign to, you know, get representation in a factory or some other place, I, the unions are gonna be, are, are, regardless of the, of the political coloration of their leadership are gonna be really, uh.
Pissed about that and are going to and are going to respond because that that is a is a huge negative for union organizing. And that's true. Even if this guy O'Brien, who I think is making a giant mistake, and he's going to be uh, you know, he's been going down to Mar a Lago. He's the Teamster. Uh, you know, he's still trying to organize Amazon.
And there are thousands and thousands of undocumented workers who are working at Amazon. You are [00:31:00] gonna start rounding them up. That's going to put a stake through the organizing campaign of the Teamsters at Amazon. So, I think the union movement will resist that very strongly.
Speaker: Well, Professor Lichtenstein, we do thank you for this.
Beginning insights into the world of working people and for more by you, people should go to one of your, one of your new books, which is Why Unions Matter. Thank you very much for being with us.
Speaker 2: Yeah. We're going to talk about that next time entirely. Why Unions Matter for 2025. Professor Nelson Lichtenstein, thank you so much for being with us.
Speaker 3: Enjoyed it. Thanks.
Speaker 4: Yeah. The people they won't leave. What is threatening about divesting and wanting peace? The problem isn't the [00:32:00] protests, it's what they're protesting. It goes against what our country is funding. Block the barricade until Palestine is free. Block the barricade until Palestine is free. When I was seven I learned a lesson from Cuban Easy E.
What was it again? Oh yeah, f the police. Actors and badgers protecting property. In a system that was designed by white supremacy. That's easy. But the people are in the streets, you can pay off Meta, you can't pay off me. Politicians who serve by any means, they pack KUFI into all the companies. You see we sell beer around the land of the free, but this generation here is about to cut the strings.
You can ban tape. Take us out the algorithm, but it's too late. We've seen the truth. We bear witness to the rubble, the buildings, the mothers and the children, and all the men that you murdered. And then we see how you spin it. Who gets the right to defend and who gets the right of resistance has always been about dollars and the color of your pigment, but white supremacy is finally on blast screaming free Palestine to their homie.
Last we see the eyes and claiming this anti semitic to the anti Zionist. [00:33:00]
Speaker 2: We're joined now by Ziad Abbas, after listening to that stunning rap performance by Macklemore Henshall. Even saying the name of little Hint brings broken heart to me. We're joined again by Ziad Abbas, born in Da'isha refugee camp.
which is in Bethlehem in the West Bank in 1948, 18 years before he was born. His parents and siblings were living in Zechariah Village near Jerusalem. Now, the family had lived there for centuries until the Zionists attacked and destroyed the village. They burned houses, fired mortar rounds from tanks, and shelled homes by air.
Siad is a former political prisoner and leader. In the ASHA camp, Ziyad is the [00:34:00] executive director as well of the Middle East Children's Alliance. And Director Ziyad Abbas, thank you, thank you for taking the time to join us from a terrifyingly, terrifyingly burdensome activity that you have been ceaselessly engaged in.
Speaker 5: Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2: You know, when I spoke with you this weekend, and I've spoken to you before, I've never heard you so, so weary. So, so pained, I've always looked at you as this incredible pillar of strength, notwithstanding all the personal experiences that you and your family have gone through and your people.
So what has brought You to that state of weariness, although [00:35:00] you are steadfast, you're filled with some mood as are all the Palestinians of Gaza, of the West Bank and beyond. What is happening on the ground that fills you with such despair?
Speaker 5: Yeah, this is actually them. Our daily life right now for over 15 months, actually 451 days, and this for this ongoing genocide against the Palestinian people, and especially in Gaza Strip and against the Palestinian people everywhere, because this what's happening in Gaza impact everyone like every Palestinian, no matter where they live at the same time impact every human being care about.
The humanity and care about the lives of people, and especially in that part of the region. And for me, it's that It's, it's a [00:36:00] little bit where you feel all the time, like when you talk with people in the ground in Gaza Strip, and we have our staff members, they are working there, and we have our, uh, partners, organizations, and our volunteers, they are working in different parts of Gaza, and we are almost in daily contacts with them.
It depends on the internet. And you hear Uh, their own, like, daily life, how they are surviving, how they try to survive, actually. And when you hear most of them, though, when they say, Every one of us, and here I quote, actually, Every one of us on the waiting list. or to be attacked, killed, arrested, injured, uh, any moment, any second.
And at the same time for us being, to be a Palestinian and living far from Gaza Strip, far I mean the distance, but Gaza inside us, very deep inside us, and every [00:37:00] moment in our daily life, even we are living here, they think that any moment they will lose their life. And every call can be the last call. And this is like it's very deep inside the human being and here I'm speaking about myself.
You feel mixed feelings like coming together inside you while you are talking with them. You feel worry about them. And you will lose them any second, any moment. At the same time, you feel very proud of them. Very proud for the work they do. The, the, the, the, uh, the fear, the, the, the spirit when they try to survive.
They care about themselves, about the people around them, about their neighbors and how they try to survive. As individuals and as a collective as a community, and this is the collective spirit. Actually, I call it all the time. The collective spirit and gives us to help the people to survive day by day, and [00:38:00] especially these days, like where the world is very busy.
The people they are. The genocide becomes something like behind there. I speaking in general, I'm speaking about in governments and how the world they are busy with the small for their holidays with everything. But every day there are 50 to 70 people at least killed many of them children. Uh, they lose their lives and, uh, by the Israeli, uh, bombing and, uh, the Israeli Air Forces and the drones, the tanks, and of course the invasion of the northern of Gaza, which is like right now, over 83 days right now in just tiny area and still bodies.
They are still in the streets, and there are a lot of footages coming from there. A lot of photos, and you hear a lot of stories when dogs are still eating the people's bodies in the streets. Still until now. And these kind of [00:39:00] photos are, it's not shutting the world. In the beginning, like, of ongoing genocide, it was a motive to influence the people, take the streets, raise their voices.
Right now, it's different, a little bit, it's slowed down, and when you hear the people speaking about this part of their daily life, what they are witnessing, and you will lose the people you know. We lost some people there, of course, and everyone of Gaza is, is, uh, important for all of us, not just the people we know, and we are in touch.
This is where sometimes shut you down. You feel the helplessness at the same time you feel the pride inside these kind of people they try to survive and you feel very proud of them. And every time like you speak with them after you close the phone or sometime you lose the contacts with them because the internet they lose it.
You think you don't know if you will be able to speak with them again or not. This is the reality in Gaza Strip and right now we are [00:40:00] coming as I mentioned Over 15 months, 451 days for ongoing genocide with all these kind of numbers. I know the numbers numbers right now. It doesn't matter that much, but still it's a huge numbers.
They are human being. They are not just numbers. They are children. They are families. They have a life. They have a history. They have relatives. They have brothers and sisters still behind them. I'm speaking about the families not erased, but even the families, there were thousands of families, they are already erased totally.
No one is still alive, but they have relatives and they have neighbors. They know them and they are the place. Knows them very well, the land, their garden, their flower, their streets. Remember these people. Right now we are coming over 45, 000 people already killed in Gaza Strip. And over 108, 000 people, 108, 000 people injured.
And this is ongoing. I'm not [00:41:00] including the people today they are killed. These are the reports we received this morning. And still there are people, they are still bombing. Add to that You have we are in winter in winter right now. I was reading a lot of reports I was talking with my colleagues today and I told them I have a radio interview at 430 my time in California here And I told them what he wanted me to say and they said nothing says they said we said already everything we won the world to stop this but it seems the world is ignoring us and I'm saying it in simply way and In this is what they feel that they said Nothing what we want.
It's we asked already in the world what they should do and today the winter like hearing all these kind of stories about the flood. Seven people, there are six of them, seven people, they are already killed by the cold. Because now in [00:42:00] Palestine is very, very, very cold this time of the year. And six of them babies.
The story is about the twins of children. One, they were one day in between. The first one died as a result of the cold. The second day, the second baby. died from the cold the second day. And the cold itself is killing the people. People losing during the night. They don't sleep. Try just to keep their tents.
The tents they are flying in the displaced refugee camps and Mawassi refugee camp near Khan Yunus. And every displaced camp, actually, in Gaza, in this weather, they are suffering. But that part of the camp, it's close to the sea, where the wind hit the boons. They say, when they describe, that there is not the rain the problem as much as it is the wind.
It hits inside the human being, the boons of the human being. And they are still they try to survive and I'm talking with you. [00:43:00] This is like the news like it's coming. Even you speak about the prison when the thousands of Palestinians from Gaza, they are already in a prison and many of them. They are since actually the beginning since October until now, in the last 24 hours, five prisoners, they are already killed in a prison in different prisons, not just in one prison in different prisons.
They are killed. Yeah. And this has increased the number Wherever you are as a Palestinian, if you, wherever you are, like you are, become a target. And especially you are a Palestinian from Gaza Strip. You are living inside Gaza. You are facing the bombing every hour, every minute, every second. You are facing the mass starvation as a result of the siege.
They, they don't allow, and I'm working in a relief organization. We are still working the ground and we are noticing, and we are witnessing not just. Not witnessing how they block the aid and still people they are facing the massive [00:44:00] starvation and some of the people they are dying as a result of that, especially the babies.
And you are at the same time, like, uh, the people that are facing the cold, where they are, they are a target. And if you are in a prison from Gaza, you'll become a target and you are arrested, you are, maybe you lose your life. And we saw like, uh, just a few days ago what happened to Kamal Adwan Hospital, which is another, I can't say it, this is when we speak about the humanity, like Kamal Adwan Hospital, it was invaded over 12 times since September, it was bombed many times.
And the people still, they come back, the doctors, they didn't leave, the nurses, and they are still helping their own community. 50 people. They are already they were in this hospital, and many of them, they are arrested, including the director of the hospital, Dr Hussam Abu Safiya. And there are a lot of footages for him.
A doctor. He was injured a few weeks ago. Now [00:45:00] he is arrested, and there are a lot of footages for him when he's getting to the tanks, arrested to the tanks. And there are some reports coming about this situation in the prison, which we are expecting, expected, hopefully not. But we are expected right now.
Anyone going to the Israeli prison maybe will not release and many other nurses and patient They are already arrested and they are under torture by the Israelis. This is the reality What's keep us inside ourself as Palestinian that feeling every day? We are losing some of our view but to be honest with you.
It's not about us I am still living in the United States. I'm privileged. I have water. I have warm clothes, blankets, et cetera. It's about our people there. What's inside ourselves, we can, it's hard for us to deal with it, to handle it. But it's, we are worried about our people inside, uh, Gaza and inside West Bank and everywhere, to be honest with you.
But inside Gaza Strip for ongoing genocide, [00:46:00] right now we are talking and our people losing their life, including children. And I say this. This is the, I mean, I can't say genocide word. It's not the real description right now. It's what's happening there because over 15 months in the front of all over the world, and we are in 2024, actually we are living in 24, going to 2025, after all the other genocides happen in the history of the human being on earth.
And now we are witnessing this on this ongoing genocide committed by the Israeli Zionist. Like settler colonialism and funded and supported by United States and the Western world, especially Europe. This is something bigger than genocide. Like, I know the history will teach about this, but right now it's We are living the moment, living the moment that we are witnessing that any person in Gerza Strip, maybe they will lose life, their life right now while we are talking [00:47:00] in this second.
And randomly. It's not necessary, they are, they know, like, it's randomly the people, maybe they will lose their life just because there is a, uh, an Israeli soldier, sit down, leading that drones, for example, just decided to start bombing this house and killing who is living in this house.
Speaker 2: Ziad Abbas, you said something to me this weekend that was, uh, chilling, and that was that what Gaza represented was an opportunity as we sought to digest all this, this terror and this slaughter and this death and most definitely, definitely, definitely at the hands of the U.
S. It is our bullets. It is our bombs. It is our license that is enabling and furthering [00:48:00] the genocidal policies and practices, the Holocaust that Israeli Zionism has perpetrated on the Palestinian people since 1948. So what did you mean when you said Gaza is an opportunity in our efforts to understand the continuation of this slaughter, of this annihilation, of this genocide?
Innocent.
Speaker 5: I look at it as an opportunity in two ways. First way is for the humanity to look at it. And this is to look at the values of the human being right now in the world. And we say all the time, expose the world to the, to ourselves. Like expose the world. What is this international community, the value of the human being, what it means, the human rights or the uh, international [00:49:00] law, United Nation, all these kind of stuff.
It's exposed totally. It's applying for some people and doesn't apply for the rest of the other people. At the same time, it's an opportunity. On the other hand, it's an opportunity for the Israelis. Because when we looked about the Zionists actually, especially right now what they are thinking. Yes, that's not it's a target right now.
What about happening in Gaza? But if you look, it's right right now, they are everywhere in West Bank, not just in Palestine, they are in part of Syria. They are already in part of Lebanon. They are taking part of Syria, not only Golan Heights, Swaziland in 1967. They are already inside, they took more parts actually right now, and they are bombing inside Syria.
They never stopped, even after all the changes happening in Syria. At the same time, they are in Lebanon, and despite the fact they have a ceasefire, but every day they violate this kind of ceasefire, and no one holds them accountable. They are bombing everywhere, in Yemen. [00:50:00] They are lashing everywhere, and when you think about it, the deep, like, and the way how the Zionists, they plan and strategize, I say it's an opportunity for them to implement and to have the Zionist dream, like, to have the pure Jewish state.
From Thurat in Iraq to Nile in Egypt. Yes, they are thinking. It's become something impractical for them. And it's not surprising. Because what they are doing right now, even, not just in Gaza Strip, the ongoing genocide, what they are doing in West Bank. And how they are target all these settlers and how they raise the issue sending all these kinds of messages attacking the Palestinian and their villages, the settlers become an opportunity for them and United States.
Absolutely. They are supporting them in that even I don't believe there is even when they speak about ceasefire, the ceasefire will stop the Israelis in this kind of limit. They are becoming in very hungry way. And this is what the [00:51:00] most dangerous thing I'm saying to you and for the listeners. That Israel, what they are doing, they normalize killing the Palestinian, make it normal, even for the news.
When you look at the corporate media, rarely you have something like published in this media. New York Times, or CNN, or other NBC, Memphis NBC, or But in reality They are normalizing killing the Palestinian, this ongoing genocide become, ah, it's okay. Sometime you look at it, the people in their daily life here in United States or even in Europe.
It doesn't mean the solidarity movement, they are not doing that much. Actually, as Gaza expand the solidarity movement, and we are counting, and this is the hope for the people in Gaza Strip and in Palestine, this solidarity movement to expand more and more. This is why it's an opportunity. It's an opportunity for the Zionist movement to expand what they have.
And they are already expanding. And it's coming, and we don't know with the new administration coming [00:52:00] right now in the United States, like, when Trump will come, how it will be. But it seems that the signs, it's very clear that maybe things will expand. And I will see the possibility of annexation of the West Bank to Israel.
It's there. Despite the same Palestinian authorities there and also agreement, Palestinian authority right now in very, very, very weak position. They are not able to control because simply because what's going on in Gaza and simply because the settlers and the whole Israeli occupation invading everywhere in West Bank, especially in north of West Bank.
Actually, this is where we see it an opportunity, but still.
Speaker 2: See, uh, let me just interrupt you in the sense of you have, with such great precision and pain, laid out these staggering violence. And it is though we are sleepwalking into the collapse of, of, [00:53:00] of a nation. And yet, and yet there is activity around the world.
So in the two minutes that we have left, in the two minutes that we have left, and we will have you back. We will not allow ourselves to be complacent. We will not allow ourselves as allies to become weary. Do tell us what civil society worldwide must do to resist the complicity of governments enabling this catastrophe as we prepare to enter 2025.
What is to be done, my dear friend?
Speaker 5: I it's to be honest with you. It's very simple and very practical. Every human being should. We are responsible about what's wrong with every one of us living here in the United States and everyone in the world. Even if you are a silent and try to be silent and avoid doesn't mean you are not participating on that.
I'm not asking people to feel just from guilty guilt. The idea. It's our [00:54:00] opportunity. It's our what's happening in Gaza to re me. To come back to value the human being in different way. People, they need to take the stand. If they don't take the stand, I'm speaking in the previous speaker about the union.
It's not only about Palestine. There are many different issues in this world, including other internal issues in the United States. But all these kinds of issues connected to each other. It's important for the people to take a stand when they look to the mirror of every morning, every day. What did I do for the genocide to stop this genocide?
And the people, they need to be more practical and very fast in their actions. And this is, this is what we will ask the people just to do. And this is what the people didn't guess actually what they asked. We want the people to take actions, enough actions to stop this genocide, no matter who you are, a worker, student, uh, uh, a high school student, uh, women organization, LGBTQ, wherever you are connected.
And this is a big responsibility [00:55:00] of us. We want the people to do more with the beginning of hopefully with the 2025 to stop. This is the immediate call just to stop because every day, every action we do can save lives in Gaza Strip. And every day we are losing people in Gaza.
Speaker 2: And I should say that in our unions, it's not enough.
Just to have a ceasefire resolution, we have to have an arms embargo, and we have to make sure that all of our institutions, universities, institutions of union and others, they must stop their arms embargo. investment in Israel and prepare for a reinvestment of those funds in a reconstruction of Gaza and a reparation for the loss of the lives, the lives of the valiant.
People of Palestine who may, who may give us back [00:56:00] our soul if we stop the genocide. No more genocide in our name. Please get in touch with, go to the website and figure out what you can do. To help the Middle East Children's Alliance, Ziad, Abbas, you, you are both the source of enormous encouragement and hope and promise.
And at the same time, you do that by giving us On the ground. Basic facts of the death and destruction that is being done in our name. Again, no more genocide in our name. Free, free Palestine. Director Ziad Abbas, thank you for spending some time with us. And check out the Middle East Children's Alliance.
We're going to have you back, right?
Speaker 5: Thank you for having me. Oh, absolutely. Thank you.
Speaker 2: Thank you for the work you do. And for all our message, [00:57:00] free, free Palestine. Take it up in everything that you do. Sign in the window, wear a kafia, tell your legislators, arms embargo now, tell your unions and institutions, stop investing.
Boycott, sanction, and divest. I'm Mimy Rosenberg.
Speaker: And I'm Ken Yass for Building Bridges, your community and labor report.
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