Fighting for the Right to Be Sick: Workers vs. Corporate Retaliation & Gerald Horne on the Capital of Slavery
In this powerful episode of Building Bridges, hosts Mimi Rosenberg and Ken Nash spotlight the fight for workers’ rights with Hannah Lopez, a hospitality worker fired for standing up for sick leave protections, and Jonathan Bailey of Amazonians United. Together, they challenge the attacks on New York’s Earned Safe and Sick Time Act (ESTA) by corporations and the anti-union law firm Jackson Lewis. The second half of the program features renowned historian Gerald Horne, who critiques the myth of U.S. independence, revealing the settler colonial foundations of the nation and linking the founding of Washington, D.C. to the preservation of slavery, white supremacy, and fascism. From present-day labor struggles to the legacy of enslaved resistance, this episode is a clarion call for internationalism, justice, and truth-telling.
00:00 Introduction – Workers’ rights and American history under scrutiny
02:00 Hannah Lopez recounts 10 years at Tao Group and retaliation for defending sick leave
07:52 Unsafe conditions, COVID test violations, and retaliation begin
11:33 Lopez authors petition, faces escalating write-ups and eventual firing
14:25 Legal battle begins – Department of Consumer and Worker Protections (DCWP) complaint filed
16:47 Jonathan Bailey on Amazon’s ESTA violations and delayed justice
20:09 Local Law 22 and the right to legal action for fired workers
23:45 Legal delays and importance of preliminary injunctions
25:00 Impact: 3.6 million NYC workers depend on ESTA protections
28:17 Origins of Hannah’s labor activism and exploitation in the restaurant industry
33:19 Building labor power and the need for unionization
35:18 Action steps: Go to protectesta.org, push City Council for legislative intent
39:00 What’s at stake if Jackson Lewis wins the case
41:45 Call to action – protecting Local Law 22 and NYC worker rights
44:03 Introduction to Dr. Gerald Horne – dismantling Independence Day myths
45:50 The Counter-Revolution of 1776 and The Capital of Slavery: overview
49:02 Founding U.S. as class collaboration and settler colonialism
52:15 Slave resistance during War of 1812 and alliance with Native peoples
55:32 Exposing contradictions in the legacy of Washington, D.C.
58:27 Haitian Revolution as true spark of global emancipation
01:01:45 Post-War scapegoating, Liberia colonization, and Nat Turner rebellion
01:05:50 John Brown and the long struggle against slavery
01:08:03 Reparations – who got them and who deserves them
01:11:00 Juneteenth, Texas, and Black-Mexican solidarity in ending slavery
01:14:10 Why centering enslaved resistance is essential to understanding U.S. history
01:16:25 Gaza, militarism, and the urgent call for internationalism
01:18:30 Closing thoughts and tribute to Dr. Gerald Horne's legacy and vision
Rough TRANSCRIPT:
I'm Mimi Rosenberg. And with Ken Nash against the backdrop of Miles Davis, great so what? We're building bridges. Later in the program, the capital of slavery.
Dr. Gerald Horne dismantles the Independence Day myth or asks, independence for whom? Stay tuned for a radical, anti-white supremacist, awoke rethinking of American history. If you live in New York City now, you earn a little bit of sick leave every day you work. It's part of the Earned Safe and Sick Time Act, ESTA, a law that protects all of us. Those protections, why, they're being attacked by the top anti-worker law firm in the world,
Jackson Lewis. Boo. The guys who hold the secret meetings and literally, literally. . . Today we're diving into a critical conversation about workers' rights, corporate accountability, and the fight for dignity on the job.
We're joined by Jonathan Bailey. a founding member of Amazonians United, an organizer with brand workers, and Hannah Lopez, a courageous worker who's standing up to powerhouse law firm Jackson Lewis and hospitality giant Tao Group Hospitality. Together, they're confronting a harsh reality faced by too many. Can you really be fired just for getting sick or injured?
And if it happens, what recourse, what recourse do you have? Well, stay with us as we unpack the legal, emotional, and human toll of workplace retaliation and what it takes to fight back. Now, Hannah, you've spent. . .
10 years working, I believe, at Tao Group, not only as a server, but as someone who's gone above and beyond for your co-workers, whether it was covering shifts or helping a colleague targeted by ICE. But when you stood up for your team's right to sick leave, you were fired. Even after the city filed multiple charges against the company, that is Tao Group,
They've refused to reinstate you. Incredibly now, your former employer is trying to change the law to prevent you and others from challenging that kind of firing. Now, you're fighting back in court. So can you walk us through Tau Group's assault on workers' sick leave, your story? And thank you so much for being with us. And,
oh, you really are the David against that monster Goliath Tau Hospitality Group and Jackson Lewis. So bring it on. Awesome. Thank you so much, Amini, for having me on today. It's very much a pleasure to be here. Yeah, so a little bit about me.
I am a worker who was standing up for my rights in the workplace. As you mentioned, I worked for this company for 10 years. I had a little break when I lost my job during COVID, as many do, as many did, excuse me. But I was rehired back at another restaurant in the company. And I had a good record with the company. I was a really great employee. I was always one of the top in sales. I often was complimented by the patrons that would come in.
I was friendly with all of my staff. We were friendly. And yeah, there was a lot of violations happening in the workplace. And those were pertaining to safe and sick leave rights. If you want me to get into the details of that, essentially what happened was people were coming to work sick because they were too afraid to call out. And they had these protocols they were trying to put in place.
One of them being you have to call out four hours before your shift, which is against the law. You can call out one minute before your shift starts because you cannot help when you get sick. So we had co-workers who, you know, before it called out, you know, I had a co-worker come come to work and they had. thrown up down the street from work as they were coming to work.
They didn't realize they were that sick and they were written up for it. So it essentially set a precedent where people were coming to work sick. I had another co-worker who had an eye infection, and they were wearing a pirate eye patch on their eye. And we were like, why are you here? And she mentioned her eye infection was really bad, but she had woken up three hours before her shift started, so she was too scared to call out.
So she came to work and was not sent home, and that was obviously. . . you know we don't know if it was contagious or maybe even worse like maybe she had something wrong with her eye and you know should have seen a doctor um but not only was it um you know a problem for the staff but we're also like public facing because we're we're serving food and drinks to the public um And then there were other things that were happening.
I had co-workers coming in with the flu and they had to leave halfway through their shift. Some other violations that were happening was they were requiring COVID tests after the city had said, you know, they're not required anymore for you to have to go back to work and they weren't free anymore. So people who didn't have health insurance were spending hundreds of dollars on COVID tests. So they were not only missing their shift, losing money, they were also spending money on
before they could return back to work is what their protocol was. And we had to have these COVID tests by noon the next day, which is also against the law. You are allowed to call out for three days in a row before your employer can ask for any type of documentation from a doctor. And if it costs money, they have to pay for it. So there was a lot of things going on. And we were just like, you know, There's so many violations happening.
We need to address this. So I authored a petition that addressed safe and sick leave violations. We also asked that there be remedies for folks who had to spend money paying for these COVID tests, that they be reimbursed. And we got around like 50, 60 signatures from front and back of house. And I personally handed it to management. And then after that,
a lot of retaliation started happening to myself and to some of my other coworkers, many of whom quit because the environment at work just got too intense and very unfriendly. I was accused of being disrespectful. Well, good for you. I was accused of being disrespectful to management. And so I was like, you know, I'm being, you know, written up a lot. This retaliation is just kind of like.
And this is after working there 10 years. Yes, yes, yes. So I went to HR, actually. And I, you know, I told them that I felt I was being retaliated against. And they called me a few days later and they fired me because they said my ethos doesn't align with the company anymore. So, yeah, after 10 years, having been fired two months after turning in a petition for my ethos. Yeah.
Wow. Yeah, wow. But all that should be illegal. So I just want you to talk a little bit about, wait a minute, wait a minute, you can't do that. We do have some laws on that. We're going to bring Jonathan in to talk a little bit. And I think Jonathan actually experienced some of that personally, too. But so wait a minute, you're fired.
And then you say, you can't do that. There should be a law. Oh, wait a minute. There is a law. What happens then? Because people really need to understand this. I mean, folks fought really,
really hard for there to be a law that allowed people to, they both accumulate a certain amount of sick time, maybe not enough, but they accumulate a certain amount, and they have a right to sick leave. They're not supposed to be fired for that. Yeah. Exactly.
So, I mean, the reason that we put it in the petition was because, you know, I was familiar with the safe and sick leave rights that we as working class. Which is what we defined, it was called ESTA. ESTA, yes, Earned Safe and Sick Time Act. I was familiar with those,
and I was teaching my coworkers about their rights to sick leave as well. So that's why we put that in the petition, that, you know, what they were doing was against the law. Okay. And, you know,
after I was fired, I went straight to the DCWP, the Department of Consumer and Worker Protections, the city agency that enforces our safe and sick leave rights. And, yeah, I've been in this process of fighting against the Goliath for about a year now. Yeah, we're going to understand that. And, you know, it's kind of like the harder they come, the harder they fall. So Goliath is going to.
. . go down. But Jonathan, how are you involved? What have you got to do with this? Talk a little bit more about your understanding of ESTA and what the heck is at stake here? Because obviously there are millions of people because what we should say is that Hannah was not to be deterred that she is going to court,
as I said, and fighting against the singularly most powerful union-busting law firm in the world. But good gracious, it's a disgrace. And we'll find out more about what the legislature thinks about this and, of course, what we're supposed to do. And in case you don't get it,
there are millions of workers now that are in jeopardy because what they're fighting for in court, what they're fighting for in court is what exactly? What do they want to do? So essentially, okay, you can hear me, right? Okay. Yeah, it's essentially we're fighting to make sure that our safe and sick leave rights
can be enforced. Yes, we're making sure that our safe and sick leave rights can be enforced by doing this private right of action. The DCW. . . Sorry, Jonathan, did you want to say something?
No, no, no. Yes. Yeah, so we are trying to make sure that workers across the city understand that their rights to safe and sick leave are not just protected by the DCWP, but also through a private right of action. Yeah, they're trying to take away,
which is the most significant thing, they're actually trying to undo this right of, If they were to prevail, that would mean millions of people would have no recourse whatsoever if they were fired. I mean, that's pretty significant. But, Jonathan, I know I can see the two of them. I'm sitting in between them here, and they're saying, shh.
i want to talk no no no go ahead okay okay because this is your forum that's what we're here for you this is how i'm connected to this um so actually at amazon um we ran into the same issue, right? Amazon denied us important aspects of our sick leave rights, denying us under ESTA. When we started fighting Amazon over it, it took four years for our rights to be enforced. Four years through the DCWP. And obviously, if it takes four years to enforce your rights, your rights don't. They don't really exist.
Right. So that's what we did. Justice delayed is justice denied. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's what happened with Amazonians United. Since then,
last year, city council passed a right of action so that we're able, as New Yorkers, we're able to enforce our rights in court. Right. Right. One of the issues, though,
that we've run into with this is that it's not 100% clear to the courts whether they should stop violations as they happen or whether they should just be granting relief as a judge. There's a question of whether they should be granting specifically preliminary injunctions so that people in Hannah's circumstance are able to be reinstated in weeks instead of years. So the initial question, of course, is can you be fired for being sick? And then let's just take it from there.
So corporations have a pretty easy time avoiding accountability. They always have, but I hope they always won't. But you've just mentioned Starbucks workers waited three years, three years for their rights to be enforced. Amazon workers, that was Starbucks workers, Amazon workers, And JetBlue employees waited eight years to be reinstated. Now, that changed. That changed,
as you indicated, when in 2024, the New York City Council passed Local Law 22, creating. . . a dual enforcement model, administrative and judicial,
designed to protect workers from prolonged job loss and economic hardship. Because after a certain amount of time, you're destitute, there's no place to go. So this means that when an employer breaks the law, as they did, we believe, with you, Hannah, the law means.
. . as it's been, that you can go to court and ask a judge to enforce your rights. It's not about big payouts. It's about getting your job back in days or weeks instead of months or years, stopping retaliation and showing other workers it's safe to stand up. Is that the case? That is the case, yes.
And the DCWP also very much agrees that. Oh, we don't like initials. What's the DCWP? The Department of Consumer and Worker Protections, which is the city agency, of course, that enforces our earned safe and sick time. They found as well that Hannah's rights were violated.
So there's a lot of agreement. There's a whole lot of agreement. But there's a very well-to-do company, and there are very. . . Lawyers that have a broader agenda because if it takes place here and they are able to defeat you, it destroys your right to action.
Exactly. And it destroys timely right to action as well. And that's really what they're trying to do. So there are two ways the courts can actually stop violations and reinstate workers who have been retaliated against. temporary restraining order, that is a TRO, people have heard of that,
TRO, temporary restraining order, and a preliminary injunction. Somewhat the same thing. These tools can stop employers from breaking the law. And without them, New York can plan for their right to action to take 32 months to reach a verdict, possibly three years by the time judgment is enforced. So, you know, I'm interested in how both of you look at, Jonathan, how important this issue is.
And maybe we seem to be getting a little convoluted here, but not really. So let's reiterate. You have the right to. . . to call out sick under ESTA and not to get fired. If you do get fired at this juncture under Local Law 22, you have the right to say,
wait a minute, I want my rights adjudicated, I want my job back, and I don't want it five years from now after my firstborn child is already probably a lawyer themselves. Yes. So have I got it right? And how many people would be affected?
yeah yeah so i mean this is a a huge issue especially you know when we look at our society as it currently is uh you know under um you know workers rights are under attack everywhere you know i mean even the trump nlrb is like quoting workers five-year wait times for them being able to be reinstated in some in some instances and so Whether you're talking about the state level or the city level, it's really important that we protect workers' rights. In this circumstance, it's 3.
6 million of us in New York that are affected directly. If you have sick leave rights or sick leave available to you at your job, there's a good chance it's because of ESTA. It's probably not that you're just getting it out of the kindness of the heart of your employer. So if you don't particularly specifically depend on these rights, people you care about, if you do care about anybody, you know,
your friends and your family, they depend on these rights. And I want to know, and just again, ESTA is Earned Safe and Sick Time Act. And what it means, aside if you have a union or other things, it means that you earn a little bit of sick leave every day you work. I'm in a union, the Association of Legal Aid Attorneys. Much of our sick leave and so on is negotiated for within the context of a contract.
But millions of people are affected otherwise by this. It's Very, very important. And what I want to know is, Hannah, what in the world made you such a fierce labor activist? Where does that come from? And why are you so committed to the struggle? I mean, taking on litigation virtually by yourself was, And now,
thank goodness, you have people like Jonathan Bailey to support you, and we hope a lot more by the time we finish this program. But what I want to know is, where does this come from? What is your sensitivity, and where does that strength of action come from in the labor market? Absolutely. Absolutely. So I would say,
honestly, that my story in caring about this stuff, I actually first was employed in restaurants at the age of 13, obviously against the law. And I've worked in restaurants all over the country. And, you know, I've seen all types of exploitation in this industry. And, you know,
seeing all these types of violations happening, especially at such a place as Tao Group, I was like, you know what, I'm really tired of seeing this and seeing different types of exploitation on, you know, my coworkers. Hannah's like Fiona from Shameless, if you know the show.
But I have to say, I have to say, you know, because Hannah is very clearly, as an individual, she takes care of all of her people, her family. her co-workers her friends that's the way that she relates to the world so yeah
like Fiona from Shameless except for a larger Mexican American family yeah that it actually is even even larger than the family from Shameless but Hannah's Yeah, but Shameless doesn't have, my goodness, any consciousness whatsoever about labor organizing. And here you are talking about you've been working since you've been 13. And people don't know,
because most of us don't exactly eat in Tao Group places, because they're not inexpensive. You know, it's pretty snazzy joints. Very. And so. . . What are your parents?
I mean, what's in that spirit and that energy that Jonathan is just talking about that made you – veer to labor and of course the help of immigrant workers because you know the labor movement has been dissipating in participation not only because of itself and some of its own issues of lacking more political unions and you know democracy within but Why is that the course of action that you have taken?
What does it mean to work and labor? How does that come from a 13-year-old to you're not that much older now? You've developed it, and Jonathan, so have you. And I'd like to know what that means for where we go, because I certainly think that the source of power of the working class should start from the base of unionization. It should start from the means of production or the means of service in our workplace. So where do you get your sensitivity from?
I mean, I think, as Jonathan pointed out, I have been, you know, taking care of a lot of people since I was a kid myself. And also seeing, you know,
again, the exploitations, exploitative practices that were happening to people I care about, whether it be my friends or coworkers on the job. And, you know, I, you know,
seeing all these different types of exploitation, it kind of leads you to ask questions and like kind of search like what is going on? You know, why does this happen? And like, what are what are our rights? So, you know, so I've done I've done work over the years myself personally,
just, you know, trying to understand the labor movement, the importance of. workers' rights in our country and protections for the working class overall to keep our communities and people in our communities as safe as possible because if you don't have workers' rights, the majority of people that exist in this country are working class.
And, you know, since we're working class, we need to have those labor rights. And I also agree with you. Like, I feel like the best way to, you know, build out the future and, you know, see like a safer future is to make sure that workers are protected.
And that also includes having safe and sick leave rights and having proper access to them. So where in the world do we go now? What are we asking for to help build this young Dolores Huerta, Cesar Chavez, or so many others in the great tradition of building labor organizers? Good God, a worker since she was 13, taking on Jackson Lewis Law Firm now. Yeah. She is just really a shero of the labor movement and with an energy that both of
you have, Jonathan. Also, Tao Group being the number one luxury food and beverage company in the world, at least according to them. Yeah, Hannah's taken on a whole lot. And so are you. And so are you.
But we have to know now, what do we do to make sure that this lawsuit is won by Hannah Lopez, this courageous worker who's standing up to powerhouse law firm Jackson Lewis and hospitality giant, Tao Group Hospitality. What are we to do? How do we help? Yeah, okay, so this is what folks need to do.
They need to go to protectesta. org. That is Protect E-S-S-T-A, standing for the Earn Safe and Sick Time Act, . org. protectesta. org um there that you'll be redirected uh to where we have the uh petition asking city council to take action to protect our sick leave rights we have just two weeks to get city council to take action otherwise we end up what
action do you want them to take and who's the head of the committee that you're addressing the petition to Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what city council can do to ensure that our rights are protected is sign on to a letter of legislative intent that will go to the court. A letter of legislative intent is a tool that legislators can use to make it really clear to the court that Hey, this is what we were trying to achieve with this legislation.
In this circumstance, it's extremely clear that they were trying to ensure that workers actually had robust protections. It's clear in the caption of the legislation, it says, to enforce protections. The Earned Safe and Sick Time Act. It is clear in all of the discussions that the council has when they talk about three years, four years,
wait times. This is what's necessary in order to make sure that workers aren't waiting forever to have their rights enforced. So let's get it again. HANA defends workers who are sick. from exercising their legal right to be out sick. And for her complaints and her advocacy with Tau Group, she gets fired. And then winds up in one of the biggest,
ugliest, meanest law firms in the world, Jackson Lewis, who wants to crush her because she wants to be able to get her job back, is actually. . . guarantee that right in legislation, and now they're trying to take it away.
So we need the legislature, and we need all of us, all of us. Can anybody send a letter of intent and say, what the heck are you doing, Judge? We stand with Hannah. We stand with the right for people to take off when they are sick and not to have retaliation. And then if the boss retaliates, we want the rights of local law 22. And we don't want to spend the next 10 years trying to adjudicate getting our job back, which is what Jackson Lewis is trying to destroy.
yeah exactly so it's super simple for city council to take action and make sure that all of our rights are safe but in order to make it clear to city council that that's what we want them to do it's important for folks to sign on to the letter to city council asking them to take action we need a strong local law 22 to protect our sick leave rights and by signing on to the petition you make it really clear to city council hey We see that you have the power to take action and make sure these rights are safe. Please do so.
Any commitment from our mayoral hopeful? Zohran, does he know of this? That's a very interesting question. We're going to put that on the agenda, huh? You know, it would be very interesting to see if mayoral candidate Zohran Mamdani hops on to support this. It would be fantastic.
Well, we got to make it so. So lastly, tell us again where we can get the petition to disseminate further and how we can pressure the legislature to do that letter of intent. What do we do? We have two weeks. So now's the big push and we're good at this. Yeah.
Go to protectesta. org. Protect E-S-S-T-A dot org. It stands for the Earned Safe In Sick Time Act. We're going to protect it. We are. So, Hannah, you are smashing. You are just marvelous.
I mean, I can't tell you. You know, at BAI, we fought furiously in Pacifica against Jackson Lewis. That's a story to be told at another time. But they're scary. And what keeps you going, my sister? I mean, you know, I. . .
I feel motivated to do my part in the fight in protecting workers' rights as much as I can. And I feel I'm in a position to be able to do so. So that's why I'm going. We've got to get her on the National Labor Relations Board. I want to thank you both for being with us. We will be following through on this. We'll have you back for the other things that you're both involved with. Jonathan, thank you.
We met at a demonstration. We met at a demonstration around people being deprived of their rights of political speech, political speech around Palestine, and now our fast and good friends here. And I hope he comes back and works with us on many issues. So we have been talking with Jonathan Bailey, a founding member of Amazonians United,
an organizer with brand workers, and the marvelous Hannah Lopez, as I said, a courageous worker who's standing up to powerhouse law firms. But most importantly, she's standing with workers to organize things. to educate, to agitate and organize for the political empowerment of the working class and definitely for our sick leave and the right to action when an employer says,
nah, I'm firing you. Thank you both for being here. And we're going to hear a little bit now of Prince doing a tribute to Mavis Staples. When will we be paid for the work we've done, which is a perfect segue into our next guest, Gerald Horne. When will we be paid for the work we've done?
In every land to keep this country free, y'all, for women, children, and men. But any time we ask for pay or loan, that's when everything seems to turn out wrong. The police dogs. Call the names, shot down and stoned. Every time the two write, somebody say we're gone. Tell me. Yeah. I really appreciate our hard-working engineer,
Reggie Johnson, who brought. . . I didn't know that Prince had done this tribute to Mavis Staples. When will we be paid for the work we've done? More like the Staples singers, but okay. Okay.
See, that's what happens when you're dealing with a pro. Well, as we approach the 4th of July, we're joined by renowned historian and author Gerald Horne, whose work tears through the patriotic fog to reveal the brutal truths behind America's founding. Horne reminds that the Constitution was not a document of universal freedom, but a fortress for slavery crafted by enslavers who ruled the early republic.
Professor Horne, as we approach another Fourth of July, your work reminds us that the founding of the United States was deeply, deeply rooted in the protection of slavery and white supremacy. Not at all the universal freedom we're so often taught. In today's political climate, we're seeing Donald Trump and his movement not only revive virulent racism and xenophobia, but also double down on the myth of American exceptionalism to justify it.
Why is this myth so central to maintaining racial and class hierarchies in the U. S. ? And how does confronting the true history of the nation threaten the foundations of that power? And who better to answer that than my dear friend, comrade, Professor Gerald Horn. Thanks for being with us. Thank you for inviting me. So you want to tackle that question,
which is really doubling down on that myth of American exceptionalism, why it's so central to maintaining racial and class hierarchies in the U. S. , to have that kind of divisiveness, that kind of xenophobia and so on? Well, first of all,
your audience needs to recognize that there is a split in the historiography, that is to say how the history is being written nowadays. Increasingly, there is a trend represented by my work, The Counter-Revolution of 1776, Slave Resistance and the Origin of the United States of America, my most recent book, The Capital of Slavery,
Washington, D. C. , 1800 to 1865, the work, a paramount black intellectual Ishmael Reed spoofing and sending up the Broadway-cum-Disney extravaganza Hamilton.
I'm thinking of the work of the late Fordham dean, Tyler Stovall, entitled White Freedom. And if you look at the work that I've just enumerated, you would walk away with the idea that that this settler colonial regime established in 1776, not unlike other settler colonial regimes, was based upon class collaboration between and amongst the European arrivals. That is to say, if you go back to 1580, where you had the first arrivals, from the British Isles into what they call North Carolina, it was a classic class collaboration as enterprise.
That is to say the 1% in London sponsoring those of diverse class backgrounds, both bent upon the mutual goal of uprooting the indigenous population And with a little bit of luck and a lot of pluck, being able to drag Africans kicking and screaming across the Atlantic to work for free. And so when 1776 occurs, it is turbocharging that process that was initiated in the 1580s. and it's not just the question of class collaboration between and amongst those of european descent it was met oftentimes awkwardly with class struggle on behalf of
the unpaid sector of the working class that is to say the enslaved africans and even though there is this continuing discourse oftentimes pitting a false dichotomy of race versus class. Basically, if you look a bit more deeply as some of the work I've enumerated suggests, a better dichotomy would be class struggle versus class collaboration. And it's not just the indigenous Africans who were involved in seeking to overturn the settler colonial regime. Recall that during the War of 1812,
which is centered in my most recent book, as noted, the capital of slavery, Washington, D. C. , recall that when the Redcoats invaded Washington,
D. C. in August, 1814, It's not only that they were joined by enslaved Africans in helping to torch the city, torch the White House, sending President James Madison and his girl, his spouse,
Dolly, fleeing into the streets one step ahead of the posse and then the formerly enslaved Africans escaping on British boats to Trinidad and Tobago, where their descendants continue to reside. It's also the fact that a good deal of the Native American population was in solidarity with the black population. The paramount Native American leader, Tecumseh,
died fighting shoulder to shoulder with the Redcoats during the War of 1812. And so it's clear that we not only need a new narrative of the founding of this country, which, as I said, is already in motion, we need a deeper imbibing of this new narrative embodied in the works that I've just enumerated.
So take us a little deeper into some of the details from your book on Washington, D. C. , and how does that actually pave the way for, gee whiz, I don't think January 6th was that unique at all. And certainly the aspirations, commentary and behavior of Trump with anything.
Maybe he read some of those earlier works or he certainly aspires to what was going on then. So where's the connectivity? Well, there are so many threats, it's difficult to know where to begin. First of all, as is well known, many of our friends on the left still adhere to the old-time religion that 1776 was a great leap for humanity, even though historians have long recognized that by several orders of magnitude,
the black population did not adhere to that moth-eaten notion. And we see that not only with regard to the War of 1812, August 1814, aforementioned, but we also see that with regard to the fact that Washington, D. C. ,
despite the fact that it was supposedly embodying a certain progressive republicanism, small r. , Washington, D. C. ,
the federal government was dominated by the enslaving class, starting with George Washington. As I point out in my book, he was one of the largest landowners in the world. In fact, I was able to look at his will, which is filed in the municipal archives of Washington, D. C.
, And it's apparent that when Washington led the revolt against London in 1776, in part, in no small measure, he was responding to the fact that in the Royal Proclamation of 1762-1763, London was seeking to curtail the ability of the settlers to continue moving west, fighting the Native Americans, denuding them of their land,
with britain subsidizing this with blood and treasure and that along with britain's halting moves towards abolition of slavery embodied in somerset's case of 1772 it was land and labor that was at the heart of this counter-revolutionary process which any materialist should recognize instinctively And so, therefore, when the new regime is set up in Washington, D.
C. , not coincidentally bordering two slave states, speaking of Maryland and Virginia, it was, as noted, dominated by enslavers, not only the White House,
particularly enslavers from Virginia, like Mr. Washington, Jefferson, Madison, et al. , But also the high court, John Marshall, the chief justice, of course, was a slave owner.
The Congress was dominated by enslavers from the speaker on down. And so one really has to scratch one's head and try to understand how there are those who consider themselves progressive have suggested that this enslaving regime bent upon extermination of the indigenous population somehow was embodying a great leap forward for humanity now certainly it's possible to say that it was a great leap forward for settlers for example in the previous book i talked about The Cherokees,
the indigenous population occupying the southeast quadrant of North America, who sought to assimilate, many of them converted to Christianity, many of them owned slaves, many of them became sedentary agriculturalists. They developed an alphabet to formulate newspapers that were bilingual in English as well. But with the advent of Andrew Jackson in the 1820s, Mr.
Trump's favorite president recalled that he sported Mr. Jackson's portrait on the wall of his office for the longest time. There was the so-called Indian Removal Act. The Cherokees, despite their assimilation, had to go. they were ousted and forced to march into what was called Indian territory, now Oklahoma, where they were supposed to live profitably. And of course, European settlers just off the boat were able to move into their mansions.
So I can understand why many Europeans, those subsequently defined as white, have seen this whole process as being fantastic. But I think it's a rather narrow-minded point of view. And all of us, of course, are maybe, perhaps,
possibly about to suffer as we stare down the barrel of fascism as we speak. You describe the enslaved as engaging in unrelenting class struggle, including joining British forces in 1814 to burn the White House. How does this moment challenge the idea that the American Revolution was the only or most important revolution on this soil? Well, as I say in the book at hand, The Capital of Slavery,
and as I pointed out incessantly and repeatedly in previous works, in order to understand a great leap forward for humanity with regard to the late 18th century and early 19th century, you really have to study the Haitian Revolution, 1791 to 1804. a revolt, a successful revolt of the enslaved that has ripple effects, not only in the Caribbean,
but also coursing into the North American mainland. In fact, as I've argued incessantly and repeatedly, the Haitian Revolution ignites a general crisis of the entire slave system that can only be resolved with this collapse, which it begins to do in North America by 1865. That is to say, with the Haitian Revolution, London realized that the jig was up with regard to its own enslaving mania.
And so therefore, by 1807, it had moved to curtail London's role in the African slave trade. By the 1830s, moving to abolish slavery itself. We see in my book on Texas, published a few years ago, that after Texas seceded from Mexico in 1836, not least because of this mania for grabbing land and enslaving Africans, Texas had to crawl into the Union by 1845 because it could not withstand the pressure from the Haitian revolutionaries and British abolitionists,
not to mention the enslaved population of the Lone Star State as well. And what's interesting about Washington, D. C. is not only its preeminent role in terms of slave resistance, but But also the fact that after the War of 1812, the free population, free Negro population of Baltimore, Baltimore being one of the most important cities of the antebellum era,
That free Negro population was scapegoated. They were blamed for what happened in Washington, which is a bridge too far. But in any case, that leads directly to the leaders in Washington, including the chief justice, moving to colonize, to use the euphemism of an earlier day. That is to say, to.
. . deport the free Negro population of Maryland to Liberia, which, of course, is started approximately two centuries ago. And then after the Nat Turner slave revolt of August 1831 in neighboring Virginia, the idea took flight that a good deal of the enslaved population
should be freed and then deported en masse to Liberia. And what's interesting is that it was not only the elite of Washington who were pushing the scheme, in neighboring Maryland, that particular state had its own foreign policy. They started an independent Maryland sponsored colony in West Africa called Cape Palmas, which was eventually folded into Liberia.
But alas, all of these efforts to Somehow wriggle out of the contradictions of slavery proved unavailing, because we all know that by October 1859, the great John Brown, the leading abolitionists with regard to those descendants of settlers, led an armed revolt. in neighboring Virginia, which is now West Virginia,
speaking of Harpers Ferry, and it could have succeeded, possibly, in leading to an armed overthrow of slavery before the U. S. Civil War, starting in 1861. But at last, he and his comrades, or at least a goodly number of them, were captured. Some were able to escape to fight another day,
including Osborne Anderson, a black person who then writes quite, accurately and adequately about Harper's Ferry, which is one of the reasons we know so much about what happened that fateful day in October 1859. Of course, John Brown was hung until the last breath escaped from his body. You know, one of the things that I was thinking as I was reading your latest work,
Washington saw manumission in 1862 before the Emancipation Proclamation, and enslavers there were compensated for their losses. How does this complicate the narrative of emancipation and really raise questions about who should be? receive reparations and who didn't well obviously the president has been set with reparations the only question is which class will be subject to repair that is to say the descendants of the enslaving class of course one of the latest loony ideas of some on the right
Yes, there should be reparations to those enslavers and their families and their descendants who had their property taken post-1865 or post-1864 more precisely. without compensation and of course as we know there's a mass movement amongst black americans and our allies to forge reparations in fact there will be a very important meeting in ades ababa ethiopia in september 2025 of the caribbean community jamaica barbados trinidad tobago etc with the african union with reparations being high on the agenda as we speak
There's a delegation from CARICOM in Brussels at the headquarters of the European Union and in London, once again, putting forward the idea of reparations. And I think that it's a breath of fresh air that all of these new initiatives are being ventilated. And speaking of new initiatives, I would be remiss if I did not mention Juneteenth,
a holiday which we just marked days ago, because the traditional story there also is in need of repair in terms of this idea that somehow the enslaved in Galveston, Texas, did not know that they were free per the Emancipation Proclamation of January 1st, 1863 When, in fact,
as I pointed out in my book on Texas, what was in motion was that the enslavers in Texas, the Confederate state least damaged by the U. S. Civil War, had the idea of continuing slavery post-Appomattox, post the surrender of the Confederate states of America, and barring that,
moving en masse with their enslaved property into Mexico, recalling, per the mexican-american holiday cinco de mayo that france had occupied mexico circa 1862 and it sought to overthrow the abolitionist decree of the president of mexico of african descent vicente guerrero who had moved to abolish slavery decades earlier and so they have this idea of moving with their most valuable property in mass into mexico but alas that idea was thwarted that diabolical scheme was thwarted
by a joint alliance of Mexican patriots and black men in blue in the U. S. Army. A revival of that kind of black-brown alliance needs to be high on the agenda. And that put pay to this scheme of continuing slavery, although I should mention in all fairness that some of the enslavers did move south of the border with their enslaved property, particularly to Brazil,
which does not abolish slavery until 1888. which raises the tantalizing possibility that there are black Americans to this very day who have relatives in Brazil who they may not be aware of. Hmm. I really want to thank you for featuring insights into your explosive book, The Capital of Slavery. And in the minute or two that we have left, why? Why is it so important to center the resistance of the enslaved and their allies in
our understanding of U. S. history? And what's at stake if we don't? Well, what's at stake if we don't is that I think we'll creep closer into the barrel of a gun that is looming fascism. That is to say, if you look at the pivotal, crucial events that led to.
. . the advance of progress, be it the abolition of slavery in the 1860s, be it the retreat of Jim Crow in the 1950s, it all resulted from a lengthening of the battlefield. It all resulted from internationalism, the aforementioned Haitian Revolution, the alliance with British abolitionists in the 19th century,
the alliance with the socialist camp and national liberation movements in the 20th century, which leads to the agonizing and reluctant retreat of Jim Crow. And I dare say that if we are to beat back the fascist attack, if we are to force Trumpism into retreat, we're going to have to lengthen the battlefield. I'm heartened to note That the leader of the NAACP has spoken quite passionately about the rise of
fascism in the United States of America. Good for him. And of course, he has not invited Donald J. Trump to the NAACP convention kicking off in Charlotte within days. But I think he needs to go a step further and recognize the roots of fascism, recognize the fact that in order to beat back fascism, there needs to be a kind of heightened internationalism and internationalism that
I'm afraid to say the NAACP retreated from some decades ago. When their leadership made the fateful decision to toss overboard the left wing leaders in the black community led by the late great Paul Robeson in return for anti Jim Crow concessions that have now possibly reached their expiration date. And in one minute. I would be remiss if we didn't say something about what? Gaza? Where does Gaza and where does stopping genocide in our name fit in to this
marvelous book, The Capital of Slavery, and all the work that you do, Dr. Gerald Horne? Well, to repeat, we have to be internationalists,
not only because it's the right, correct, and moral thing to do, but it's also the sensible thing to do. That is to say, the U. S. Treasury, despite the printing of dollars, has a finite amount of money. There can either be our tax dollars going into Buster Bunkers,
bunker-busting bombs dropped in Iran or fueling Israeli genocide in Gaza, or our tax dollars can go towards universal child care and enhance the health care system and, of course, a more sustainable system of higher education, K-12 education. So that is the stark choice that's looming before us. Okay.
you must pick up a copy of The Capital of Slavery. I love the name. I love the play on words and all of the many books that Dr. Horne has done. And I'll be darned if I understand why you haven't gotten on the banned list. I'm not trying to encourage that. I guess they just haven't intellectually even caught up to that level of writing. Well.
. . Dr. Gerald Horne, thanks for educating, agitating, and organizing us to beat, beat back the fascist attack.
We've been speaking to Dr. Gerald Horne. His voice is always a clarion call at this moment of backlash and erasure. Thanks, Gerald.
Thank you for inviting me.
And I'm Mimi Rosenberg.
And I'm saying organize,
organize,
organize,
educate,
agitate,
and organize to empower we the people for another world as possible.
And we are the ones who surely can make it so.
Thanks for listening.
Bye.Bye.
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